It's Not Punishment

According to Alan Dershowitz, in his book “Is There a Right to Remain Silent?”, according to the Supreme Court's ruling in Chavez v. Martinez, a person's Fifth Amendment right to refrain from self incrimination is NOT violated if an incriminating statement is coerced from the person through torture, IF that statement is NOT used against the person in a criminal case.

Neither, according to Justice Antonin Scalia, who hangs out with Cheney while hearing a case in which Cheney is a party, the Eight Amendment's injunction against "cruel and unusual punishments" does not apply to torture, because at the time the torture is being applied, the person is not being "punished" from the point of view of the Amendment, which apparently refers to something done to a convicted person.

Does this mean that the state can do whatever it wants to a person so long as the state does not use the person's statements against him in a court of law, and does these things before the person has been charged with anything -- do what you will, but do it before the person is brought into the legal system.

The Only Thing

Paraphrasing UCLA Bruins football coach Henry Russell ("Red") Sanders: "Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing."

“I’m not convinced we’re winning it in Afghanistan,” Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told the House Armed Services Committee on Wednesday. “I am convinced we can.” NY Times, 9/11/08.

Q Are we winning?
THE PRESIDENT: Absolutely, we're winning. Al Qaeda is on the run. As a matter of fact, the mastermind, or the people who they think is the mastermind of the September the 11th attacks is in our custody. We've now got a procedure for this person to go on trial, to be held for his account. Most of al Qaeda that planned the attacks on September the 11th have been brought to justice.

....

The ultimate victory in Iraq, which is a government that can sustain itself, govern itself, and defend itself, depends upon the Iraqi citizens and the Iraqi government doing the hard work necessary to protect their country. And our job is to help them achieve that objective. As a matter of fact, my view is the only way we lose in Iraq is if we leave before the job is done.
Office of the [White House] Press Secretary, October 25, 2006

So we will know that we have won when we leave, but we won't leave until we have won?